Wednesday, March 25, 2009

I'm a WoW Tourist, Apparently

Wow. I turned on the laptop at work today to find "Syncaine" had apparently ripped apart one of my posts word by word, offering a rebuttal for every other sentence. He even went on to the comments section of my post, and attacked anyone who had anything to say there, as well. Awesome. Apparently, I'm not allowed to offer up an opinion on Darkfall, since I'm just a WoW loving carebear, or something. While I could go back through his post, and offer a word by word rebuttal, I honestly don't care enough to, but I will touch on a few choice gems, because this is a blog, and blogging is what I do here.

I won't bother with a numbered bullet list or anything silly, because that's just not how I operate (OVER HERE IN CAREBEAR WOW LAND--- lol, sorry, I'm honestly not going to do that the entire post).

The one most specific thing that really stuck out during the entire post was the "clinging to your Macbook and cursing Windows through your tears" syndrome. Like, you hate WoW. We get that. So you went and bought Darkfall. Way to go, have fun in there. But the bitter, angsty "YOU GUYS ALL SUCK BECAUSE YOU PLAY THAT ONE GAME EVERYONE ELSE DOES WAHHH" thing just really comes off as silly and childish. The fact that people prefer different playstyles is something I can fully appreciate. The theme of my article was not "Darkfall sux lol and ne1 who plays it is sux 2 lol". It was more along the lines of "I bought and tried Darkfall, it isn't the game for me, and this, this, and this is why".

I mentioned a few key points, and will touch on them again. I won't bother to copy and paste quotes from his article, it feels petty.

Shallow Combat - Darkfall is a circle jerk. You shoot arrows from a distance (yes, I understand that's how arrows work), and then close in, pull out a polearm, and circle strafe. There are two 'moves' for melee combat that I had played far enough to encounter. The vertical chop, and horizontal chop. I understand that later, you get 4 other moves. And those moves are the exact same for every weapon. Pull in, knock back, powerful thrust, and ... something else. Wow. Thrilling combat system you have there.

Shallow combat also includes mob AI, which Syncaine bothered to compare to WoW's infamous 2,2,2,3,2,4 system. The mobs in Darkfall aren't exactly rocket surgeons, either, and while 'plate doesn't fall out of the sky' I certainly didn't have a hard time shooting my wand over and over (and over and over) at some humanoids that couldn't figure out how to navigate a 30 degree ramp leading up to me. In fact, I wasn't alone in this adventure, and noticed about 7 other people that had discovered this same "combat mechanic", and we all just shot our wands at them over and over (we ran out of arrows) until these mobs died, then we'd loot them (banded armor I think they offered?), and wait for them to respawn. I once got jumped by a group of mobs while exploring some ruins, and then realized they weren't able to attack me if I stood on a planter box 2 feet high. So I would jump off the planter box, swing swing swing, and then jump back up on the planter box and rest. I'd offer screenshots of this awesome location, but the screenshot button (you know, the one in the key bindings menu?) didn't work, and I got tired of alt-printscreen-open-Photoshop-new-document-paste-ing. Sometimes, if confronted on a perfectly flat piece of terrain with nothing to jump on, combat was interesting. If, that is, you consider spamming left click to be a huge improvement over spamming 2.

I mentioned that I respected LotRO, but not because it was 'like WoW'. I respect LotRO because it's the most finished MMO besides WoW available to play. If Darkfall was half as polished as LotRO, I would have noted that. Instead, it plays like a half finished, rushed product... but still took 7 years to make?

Macroing - I botted in WoW near the end of BC, and had my original account banned. This isn't something I'm horribly proud of, but it's hardly anything I'm hoping nobody discovers, either. I'm pretty upfront about the whole thing, and I even wrote about my banning, and the 'lesson I learned' from the ban. I lost three fully geared toons, and a lot of invested time in my characters. In the end, it was a good lesson, though, because when I came back to playing WoW (after trying many other games), I took the game for what it was: just a game. I play WoW to have fun these days, and whenever I start to lose track of that I take a step back.

Before I even get around to the macroing, thing, I really want that to soak in. These are games we're playing, and they're meant to be enjoyable. I don't understand the need to even try and piss on one another over the choice of game we play. Even in my most scathing 'reviews' of the Warhammer beta (which ended up having me banned for breaking the NDA), I always ended with "i sure hope they iron it out, and make a fun game worth playing, but what I just played wasn't it". I made a comparison to baseball, and subsequently got called out for erroniously thinking it took 22 people to play baseball; I honestly don't know/don't care, because baseball isn't really my thing. But do baseball and basketball players throw tomatoes at each other? Do they need to somehow justify that their sport is the 'better' one? I doubt it, and don't get why we need to do that. The Xbox vs PS3 thing is funny to me, because I own every console. The only people who get honestly pissy about stuff like this are those that can only beg mom for one subscription per month. I'd happily subsribe to three MMOs if they were all worth playing.

Anyway, yeah, the macroing. I'm sure some people think this is an awesome advance in gameplay mechanics. Setting up your Logitech G15 keyboard to hit P every 10.1 seconds, and then binding P to be the 'left click' action. Then you equip your mining pick, sit in the middle of town, and stare at the screen while your keyboard plays for you. This is what Glider did for my rogue --although it was "walk around in a circle Sinister Strike-ing any spiders you encounter until they die, and then loot them", which even then, is (sadly) more fun to watch. This isn't playing the game. In Darkfall, it isn't even frowned on. It seems to be expected. Even Aventurine has taken the stance that 'as long as you're staring at the screen while your macro plays, that's cool'.

I noticed 30 people crowded around the same rock 5 feet from the bank, 'working on the chain gang' and thought 'is this what I'm supposed to be doing?' Then I walked around the corner, and saw 2 people 'crouch walking' into a wall to skill up their 'walking while crouched' skill. Awesome. Have fun with that. If this is the kind of gameplay you enjoy, then by all means, have at it. I won't tell you not to play, and certainly I won't cry about it after you leave WoW to move on to something 'better'.

The PK system - For a game with so much clamoring about how fucking carebear WoW is, it certainly didn't like me killing someone. While it's 'neat' that I can kill some member of my own faction, the game swiftly kicked me in the nuts for doing so. Huh? Oh, so it's an option, but the WRONG option? Oh, wait... let me just make sure I understand this correctly: so, I'm a human, and I should only kill other orks? Gee... that reminds me of some other game, I can't think of the name off the top of my head, though.

The One Spec - Yes, everyone is training earth magic and using the same weapon. Bonedead even pointed out to me (helpfully, thank you Bonedead) that I was totally shooting myself in the foot by using knives. That knives were effectively broken in their current implementation. I mention that having only one toon per server (and only server to choose from) really limits what playstyles you can engage in depending on your mood. Again, I'm sure the hardcore roleplayers are used to only having one online persona or something, but last night I played my 68 warrior for a little bit (instead of my 80 warlock or priest), and actually had a pretty fun time with it. That's simply not an option in Darkfall. I'm sure that makes me a huge loser, or something? I don't even see how that could POSSIBLY have a negative connotation, but I guess it does.

Whatever. Have fun with your "mounts that are rare drops from herbing" (seriously?), and raiding other guild camps naked. If it makes you happy, then HAVE FUN DOING IT. It doesn't need to be some big thing. Even in all of the examples I've given above, I give examples from my own (milquetoast, WoW?) point of view. I'm not saying having every single player be the same spec is the WRONG way to play, I'm just saying I don't prefer it.

One last note, that I'm sure will make Syncaine's head explode with WoW Fanboy Overload if it hasn't already: Maybe you're new here, but I'm actually moving back to America to try and get a job at Blizzard designing raid encounters.

Still there? I think WoW is honestly a good enough game that I want to actually try and help make it. That's how 'into WoW' I am. I've got a fully fleshed out raid dungeon with over 12 unique encounters fully drawn up (architecture, trash mobs, boss encounters, questlines) that I'm putting the final touches on backstory and lore for for final submission to Blizzard as a resume for a Game Design position. While I'm sure my 'MMO street cred' level just plummeted off the charts on your little gauge, in reality, what you think of my gaming choice has no impact on what I will choose to play. Not like 'a little'... I mean none. And while you may think Darkfall is zomg awesome, is it awesome enough that you think you could work for Aventurine to help make it that much better? Or are you content to just take what you're given, hold it close to your chest, and cling to it while cursing WoW through your tears?


43 comments:

Kyir said...

I still can't decipher what was said about me.

I must be missing something.

Ixobelle said...

it's all very mysterious.

Kyir said...

I believe it to be a code of some sort, perhaps it leads to treasure.

Ysharros said...

OOooo fight! fight! fight!

Should I get popcorn? :D

Whatever you do don't kiss and make up or you'll make some commenter I won't dignify by naming extremely uncomfortable, because that kind of stuff is just... awkward.

(It's not so much the rant posts I like as the nuts they bring out of the woodwork!)

Jason said...

Dammit. You two are gonna force me to run an extra Blog-o-steria segment tomorrow night.

Jason (resident drunken idiot of Channel Massive who likes to sign his comments because it makes them 10x more valid)

Stabs said...

I'm pretty sure that the concept of "WoW tourists" is simply Syncaine's personal invention and a rather silly form of elitism.

Many people tried and left MMOs before WoW was launched. I remember Horizons, a game where not only did all the players leave in under a year but so did the devs.

I think what he's trying to do is claim that you are somehow elite if you enjoy badly made games.

It's a real shame that the very solid elements to Darkfall, in particular creating an environment so hostile that players have to stick together fails because the players it attracts are not people most other players want to build loyalty towards.

I probably will try DF quite soon. I'll probably like the game but hate the people playing and leave. That isn't being a WoW tourist. That's recognising a deep flaw in the hardcore pvp community.

Many sports teams manage a great Us and Them mentality without being such ranting dweebs. Something about the safety of the internet makes self-styled macho men socially disfunctional and breaks the prospect of group-based pvp games. If I were in Syncaine's guild, instead of bonding with him, I'd want him to get ganked.

Melf_Himself said...

Love e-drama.

The issue that WoW-bashers have with people who post about the awesomeness of WoW, is that game developers will read that and decide to copy-paste WoW into every feature of their upcoming game (see: 95% of every MMO released since WoW).

Therefore, although you lose nothing from people who bash WoW (there will still be WoW, much like death and taxes), people who hate WoW lose the chance to play future awesome games because said games were instead made into WoW.

Longasc said...

I find it thoroughly disgusting how aggressive syncaine bashed a demonized group called Wow tourists and especially you. Basically, he is hardcore and you and others are idiots by default. He had nothing to say besides that and behaved like a total jerk/idiot, whatever.

This is not okay, but you should not make it more of an e-drama than it already is.

-change of topic: Regarding creating WoW raid content, please do something else and do not create more dance choreography for the supposed WoW endgame content.

As much as I criticized syncaine's attitude, I also share the belief that what the world DEFINITELY not needs is more super casual raids and catering to the lowest common denominator, as WoW does.

Ixobelle, please... do not design WoW raid encounters! :)

Read this! -> http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=1479

Wolfshead is enlightened. No kidding.

Bonedead said...

WoW Tourists started with the release and subsequent massive server closing of WAR. We blame it on "WoW Tourists" because they didn't really want something besides WoW, they wanted something just like WoW. Some people think that is why Aventurine is doing this staggered release, so they do not fall victim as WAR did. That's probably not true, but it is pretty funny.

(I know it doesn't matter but they changed the mining nodes to move people away from towns)

From my point of view, Polearm sprinters are like people who only use the AWP or silenced Colt in CS. They're strong, sure, but they're just newbs with 1 trick. You just need a 2handed skill (any of them) as well as a 1 handed skill (even daggers would work). You block polearm sprinters until they run out of stamina (backing up so they cannot get behind you) and then switch to your 2hander to finish them off.

Dillon said...

These are games we're playing, and they're meant to be enjoyable. I don't understand the need to even try and piss on one another over the choice of game we play.

But do baseball and basketball players throw tomatoes at each other? Do they need to somehow justify that their sport is the 'better' one?

Not to mention, civilization type players. (It was surprising, after a couple of years on MMO forums and a few movie forums, to go to some large galactic civilization forums, and civilization series forums, and see people being friendly towards each other, even with different skill levels.)

My current thought on this is that, because of the amount of time MMO's take, people who play them a lot tend to get quite personally invested, which brings out the worst in them. It may also be the PvP elements, and status competetion, in a lot of MMO's, that attracts or brings out the more assholish qualities in people talking about them.

Random Poster said...

@ Bonedead

"WoW Tourists started with the release and subsequent massive server closing of WAR. We blame it on "WoW Tourists" because they didn't really want something besides WoW, they wanted something just like WoW. Some people think that is why Aventurine is doing this staggered release, so they do not fall victim as WAR did. That's probably not true, but it is pretty funny."

Is there no room for the fact that WAR was a bit of a mess when it launched to be the reason people left?

yes there was some "tourism" going on but it's not the only reason. The game shipped with loads of issues from balancing, to gameplay, to server population imbalances.

There is and always has been Tourism going on. It happened when WoW launched people left all their old MMO's to get a look at the new kid..but you know what..it was good enough to hold on to a majority of those tourists plus add new people.

Yet somehow for WAR, or Darkfall, or any othe rnew game that comes out it is not the Developers fault for releasing a mess but the Tourists fauls for not taking a subpar product and forcing themselves ot play it?

How does that make any sense?

Oh and I'd like to point out that the same thing that happened to WAR happened to AoC..but you don't see people blaming the "WoW Tourist' for that do you.

HP said...

LOL, I read his post and wow, I don't know why he is trying to incite a blog fight. The whole thing seems stupid to me, really.

And that mention about the gay thing, LOL!!!! Well, I am a girl but I see nothing wrong with being gay and playing the game with your friend.

Most people play MMOs with people they know, don't you know?

As for being a carebear just because you like an MMO, so what?!

At least you are doing something you enjoy, which is the entire freaking point of playing an MMO!

And how you described the PK system in Darkfall does NOT sound fun. Why should you be obligated to like such a game then??

I guess you could take that rebuttal post as a form of twisted compliment? He obviously felt strongly enough to try to "dismantle" your post along with insultingly retorting against every single comment made on that post.

Honestly, it's his opinion, it's your opinion and in matters such as preference, there is no wrong or right.

Why so serious?

Team Ixobelle!!!

Pierre said...

I don't get Darkfall (or their fans). It plays out to be awesomely hardcore, but all people seem to do is grief people using exploits in the game (like running in front of you while shooting).

How is that hardcore? That's like using wallhacks in Counter Strike and saying "oh well, yeah i'm wall hacking, but that's hardcore (for you when you lose)".

Pierre said...

Oh and also. People complaining about "wow tourists" as something negative.

You should kiss the asses of wow tourists. They made sure that AV just didn't go bankrupt in the first weeks.

Instead you actually get to play your game for a few months until the population dwindles. And then dies even more when MO comes out - oh no DF tourists!

Hatch said...

This is exciting! Not only did he quote me, but he didn't bother to read what he quoted all the way through before he made a comment about it that wasn't true!

And right before that, he commented on a quote of mine with no explanation of what he meant, so his "rebuttal" didn't really make sense!

Wow! How flattering! :D

Gritz said...

Iso is the one definitive source for reviews on MMOs. Thank you for testing them so I don't have to :)

Seriously though - the vast majority of other stuff about MMOs out there is either in the 'press release' camp or the 'rabid fanboy' camp - thank you for cutting through the BS for us.

Bonedead said...

@RandomPoster
"Is there no room for the fact that WAR was a bit of a mess when it launched to be the reason people left?

yes there was some "tourism" going on but it's not the only reason. The game shipped with loads of issues from balancing, to gameplay, to server population imbalances.

There is and always has been Tourism going on. It happened when WoW launched people left all their old MMO's to get a look at the new kid..but you know what..it was good enough to hold on to a majority of those tourists plus add new people.

Yet somehow for WAR, or Darkfall, or any othe rnew game that comes out it is not the Developers fault for releasing a mess but the Tourists fauls for not taking a subpar product and forcing themselves ot play it?

How does that make any sense?

Oh and I'd like to point out that the same thing that happened to WAR happened to AoC..but you don't see people blaming the "WoW Tourist' for that do you."

The people that don't love everything WoW didn't quit until after the WoW players went back for Liche King (which if you remember launched about the same time WARs one month free time ran up). The reason they did quit was because of barren servers because a game like WAR requires dense population for it to achieve the desired effect (for the game to work as the devs intended).

Server population imbalances? Because WoW doesn't still have that problem, nope.
Same with balancing, which class is FoTM in WoW this month? (every mmo will always have balancing problems)
Gameplay is such a blanket statement that I can't even respond except to say that I think WoW has "gameplay issues". (Yeah, take that!)

When WoW launched, there was no tourism. That's like saying when everyone started boating over to America they were all tourists. You're not a tourist unless you go back where you came from.

This is my favorite part though. Where all new games are released as a "mess" and are "subpar" therefore cannot retain membership.

Why do you think you and WoW players consider these games a "mess" and "subpar"?

Well I can tell you why one of my RL friends stopped playing WAR (and went back to WoW where has has 4800 hours logged on his xfire). He told me he just didn't like it, I asked why, he said it was just too boring. So I asked him how he tried to level.

Turns out he just did a bunch of quests and a couple of PQs (which he thought were cool). He didn't try Open RvR (which admittedly wasn't that great at release, but is now) and he didn't try a single Scenario.

He even got to level 26. By solely questing and doing PQs.

Wonder where he adopted that playstyle.

Wonder why he would try to apply that playstyle to a game that advertises itself as the opposite of what he is used to.

As for AoC, I can't really comment much because I still haven't played it. However, my guild played it since release up until Darkfall came out, so I can't see it being that bad. Plus they shipped over 1 million boxes (sold over 500,000).

But this is the big point.
Over 500,000 people signed up for AoC beta.
The month after release, over 500,000 copies were sold.
They had 49 initial servers, giving each server over 10k people a piece.

Where the hell do you think all of those people came from? (hint: before WoW the estimated number of MMO players was <500,000)

Warhammer had 750,000 people playing one month after release (Mid October of 08).
WotLK released Mid November 2008.
Warhammer had over 300k paying subscribers in December of 2008.

You're telling me that is Funcom and Mythic's fault? What would have happened if they didn't put up enough servers to accommodate the estimate player base? Would people have said what they're saying about Darkfall now? How dumb they are for not letting everyone who wants to play actually play?

What if Aventurine, indie game company, exhausted it's resources some more and put up enough servers for the people who obviously aren't going to stick around? Do you think they could afford a loss like that? (aka, losing 70% of their servers)

Plus, the majority of WoW players who try out games that aren't WoW pretty much NEVER stick with it. Especially if the game was just released.
Why?
Because every MMO in the history of MMOs has released with bugs and lack of polish and queues and server downtime. The majority of WoW players did not play WoW at release and those who did like to conveniently forget that it had the same damn problems.

So what do they do after that? head on over to the WoW forums of course! We have important "THIS GAME IS TEH SUX" threads to make, which in turn, affirm the notion in WoW players' heads that there is no game out there "better" than WoW.

So when a game has been around a year and has polished up quite nicely, they're still not going to get new players because the only possible new players they could get would be coming from WoW, but since they all heard "THAT GAME IS TEH SUX" they won't even consider it.

Blizzard has raised an army of ignorant, whiney little bitches who only expect WoW quality MMOs out of every fucking game that releases. Which pretty much goes against the "Constitution" of the MMO genre (but why would WoW players bother to care about history of something they're supposed fans of).

MEH!

Dillon said...

Server population imbalances? Because WoW doesn't still have that problem, nope.
Same with balancing, which class is FoTM in WoW this month? (every mmo will always have balancing problems)


In warhammer's case, where the game is built around PvP between two fixed groups, and around activities that involve a lot of grouping, population imbalances will be more of a problem than they are for WoW, where once a population is reached where people can find enough others for an instance or raid, the remaining population doesn't matter as much.

As for class balance, it is quite possible for class balance to be more serious in one game compared to another. (Diablo 2 for instance, had much more imbalance between classes and skills than pretty much everything else I've played.)

When WoW launched, there was no tourism. That's like saying when everyone started boating over to America they were all tourists. You're not a tourist unless you go back where you came from.

If WoW had not been able to retain the new players, they would be considered "tourists" or the equivalent by other people as well.

You're telling me that is Funcom and Mythic's fault? What would have happened if they didn't put up enough servers to accommodate the estimate player base?

If they had released the games with less bugs, less system requirements issues, etc., they would have kept more subscribers, so yes, they certainly did make some contributing screwups.

Blizzard has raised an army of ignorant, whiney little bitches who only expect WoW quality MMOs out of every fucking game that releases. Which pretty much goes against the "Constitution" of the MMO genre (but why would WoW players bother to care about history of something they're supposed fans of).

Depends what you mean by "WoW quality". If you mean "game that resembles WoW in terms of playstyle", the same thing happens from rabid fans of any type of MMO, (including ones who do what you seemed to just do, making an assumption of a what MMO's are "supposed" to be like.) to me (Who mainly plays guild Wars, if anyone's interested), most complaints in general about MMO's seem to be coming from people who got overly emotionally invested in their games, and have difficulty stepping back and taking a deep breath.

Bonedead said...

Warhammer lost 400k+ players in the span of a month. Out of those 400k+ players, the majority probably went to play Liche King.

That could definitely cause population imbalances.

You have to be able to see that there is a very large group of people, whose home base is WoW, that roams from new game to new game leaving the new games in shambles because the company had to shell out money to accommodate them only to have them leave after a month. The company loses money, loses employees, and that is supposed to somehow improve the genre or the game?

How are these games supposed to get better if they're practically crippled a month after release?

I did realize that the people returning from WoW could be considered tourists, but if you compare the numbers then to the numbers now, they'd be incredibly different.

It isn't just that they're tourists. It is also that the number of tourists is greater than pretty much any "AAA" MMO's current subscriber base.

None of the new games are going to be the size of WoW (except maybe the next MMO from Activizzard), it is stupid financially for them to plan on that it.

I guess Devs should start releasing new games only right after WoW expansions.

Kyir said...

Because there were no MMOs when WoW shipped.

None.

0.

Zip.

etc.

Could it just be that WoW is, gasp, better?

If a game came along that I enjoyed more, there would be no reason for me to keep playing WoW, considering about 50% of it is glorified chatroom stuff. Unfortunately, there isn't.

Bonedead said...

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Good job explaining your fucking comment you monkey.

Geoffrey said...

I think you are right about WoW being the best MMO right now, but I just want to comment about your desired career choice. While I suppose submitting your resume to Blizzard and seeing what happens shouldn't take up too much time, I think it is probably a bad idea.

You are going to end up starting at the bottom somewhere for crappy pay. You don't have the degree that you would need to grease the promotion track. Now, you don't necessarily need a degree, but without one, in a big company, it's just one more thing that can be used against you when it comes to promotion time, and it is close between you and some other fellow.

Finally, the position you seek, I hate to say it, is one that many are qualified for. Coding games takes substantial training, but making stuff up, well lots of people can do that, and lots of people want to do that, so you are competing against all kinds of morons who don't want to learn how to program.

Anyway, based on what you said your background was, I can impart some advice, and this is something I do myself. You ought to just open up your own IT practice, consulting for small businesses, setting up servers, firewalls, maintaining their network. No one is going to ask about your degree. Heck, they probably won't even ask about your certifications, as long as everything is going well.

You can charge $100 to $150 per hour, be your own boss. Just get a few clients, and word will spread, and you will be OK. This is lots better than some $30K per year entry level grunt position at Blizzard, which you never know how it is going to pan out. You are a family man now, and you need to take your 30s/40s seriously (not sure how old you are).

Games are cool, but keep them a hobby. And it's no fun working for the man, even if than man is Blizzard.

Melf_Himself said...

"Could it just be that WoW is, gasp, better?"

More people play Solitaire than play WoW. Could it be that Solitaire is better?

'Better' can be defined in many ways. If the way is 'depth of gameplay', then WoW loses to a lot of games. If the criterion is instead "not being buggy and having cool looking weapons and having nice chat functionality and stuff" then WoW beats a lot of games.

Pierre said...

Work for blizzard?


http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/5/23/on-the-keeping-of-secrets/

Random Poster said...

@melf

"Could it just be that WoW is, gasp, better?"

More people play Solitaire than play WoW. Could it be that Solitaire is better?

'Better' can be defined in many ways. If the way is 'depth of gameplay', then WoW loses to a lot of games. If the criterion is instead "not being buggy and having cool looking weapons and having nice chat functionality and stuff" then WoW beats a lot of games.

That analogy doesn't work. Apples to Oranges. One is a free to play card game that is readily available on every computer shipped that you can play at work. The other...not so much.

A better analogy would be against one of the F2P MMO's though even that analogy has issues as they use different payment models which can color the numbers.

And since there are many games that share the exact same payment model and have the same core game mechanics already out there, why would you compare against anything different for the analogy.

And I agree with your core "Better is different for everyone" just think the analogy fails.

@Bondead

"Why do you think you and WoW players consider these games a "mess" and "subpar"?"

Eh I know why I left...the game failed to deliver what it promised. RvR was a FAILURE at launch. Even Mythic realized this; they have been steadily trying to fix it. I got most of my levels through Scenarios when playing because RvR did not happen. But your friend going with all PvE stuff, is his fault how? It is in the game. Obviously Mythic wanted SOMEBODY to do it.


"As for AoC, I can't really comment much because I still haven't played it. However, my guild played it since release up until Darkfall came out, so I can't see it being that bad. Plus they shipped over 1 million boxes (sold over 500,000).

But this is the big point.
Over 500,000 people signed up for AoC beta.
The month after release, over 500,000 copies were sold.
They had 49 initial servers, giving each server over 10k people a piece.

Where the hell do you think all of those people came from? (Hint: before WoW the estimated number of MMO players was <500,000)

Warhammer had 750,000 people playing one month after release (Mid October of 08).
WotLK released Mid November 2008.
Warhammer had over 300k paying subscribers in December of 2008."

Reading comprehension for the win. That was my point. AoC had a LOT of WoW tourists but when the game lost a ton of people and shut down servers nobody said "oh it’s because of the WoW people". Nope they blamed the game design. The lack of content. The bugs....sound familiar?

"Server population imbalances? Because WoW doesn't still have that problem, nope"

Yeah...That doesn't hurt WoW's game play though does it? It is a fundamental flaw for WAR though. Even when the servers where FULL of all these tourists the servers was heavily unbalanced in Destructions favor. That breaks the game. As Destruction you couldn't find fights...as order you could expect to get steamrolled by a zerg if you tried anything. Net result. Everybody played Scenarios. This turned in to one huge grind. Oh and if you were destro you could expect to wait a lonnnnnng time for one to pop.

"Same with balancing, which class is FoTM in WoW this month? (Every mmo will always have balancing problems)"

Again in a primarily PvP focused game this is an even larger issue than it is in a primarily PvE game.


An example of a game play issue goes to their zone design. WAR should have been designed to funnel people into RvR. Instead you had people spread out across too many zones in to many lakes. You could never reach the critical mass needed to force the conflict the games wants you to be doing. The decision to make the rewards for RvR to. Quite frankly. suck compared to Scenarios...The fact that the contribution is actually just a random roll...the fact that if you take part in a keep more than once and you happen to get a gold bag twice...someone else who actually needed the armor from it just got screwed because you can't use it since you already have it....the very sluggish feeling UI.

There are a host of them but those are off the top of my head.

In about 2 more months I plan on going back to WAR to see what has improved and if RvR is happening (preferably through all tiers. not just Tier 4)I plan on hangind around in it.

"When WoW launched, there was no tourism."

Yeah I guess you can't call them tourists if they all stayed. Why did they stay though..Oh yeah...they thought/think it’s a better game. Shockingly enough if they had all thought WAR...or EQ2...or AoC...or LotRO...or Champions Online or any of the others coming out are better..They will stay there to.

See I’m not pissy because you or Syncaine or anyone else likes Darkfall or any other game. Obviously it suits you, I hope you have fun. That doesn't make anyone who disagrees with you a flaming pile of feces. It makes them human.

Ixobelle said...

i pretty much have my whole next article formulated in my head, but am just not in a mood to type it all up right now (sorry).

Everything comes full circle this weekend, fo sho, tho.

Hatch said...

Tobold posted a really really good response to this stuff today. Any time I deal with someone like Syncaine, I'll just link them this post and walk away.

http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2009/03/mmorpg-quality.html

oshin said...

That was pretty hilarious, I didnt take the whole thing it, its very tldr. The fact he took my comment in his uber "im so sarcastic i dont even know if im sarcastic" post makes me laugh a little, i feel a bit like somebody who went down to the store for milk and got driveby`d

Honestly though, the whole thing reeks of nerd elitism. Im guessing hes the type of guy who was much happier in the 80s when only the elite unwashed few played games themed around fantasy. He surely must have been delighted with everquest, which contained plenty of like minded friends, and alienated anybody who didnt like deeply unfun grinds. But then wow came along, maybe he liked it at first, but then all of a sudden john q gamer started playing it in droves !

So he did the logical choice, he made a blog raging about this stupid popular game, while trying to show off other mmos as being so much better, and occasionally ethug driveby any stupid big mac eating, tv watching, WoW proletariat

tim said...

I find it funny that most of the people commenting on WAR do not actually play it! I tried going back to wow, and found it a miserable experience because the PVP was still awful. I can't figure out for the life of me why anyone who considers themselves to be a "PVP junkie" could actually play it and be entertained.

Just a thought, trying to explain the success, failure, or stagnant existence of any game (or anything) probable can't be summed up in 1-2 sentences.

I would recomend going back and trying warhammer (actually playing it, not just grinding PQ's) and you will find the RVR combat to be pretty exciting, especially after the changes they have made.

I also find the graphics to really make a difference. So much more depth and brilliant effects than wow has had to offer.

-Mybust

Anonymous said...

@BoneDead

Is their a window in your mom's basement? Or do you use the blacklight?


No, but seriously stfu. Elitism rears its head again. Apparently in your world unless you're grinding kills 14 hours a day and touching yourself after every pk you're a "tourist." There's nothing wrong with trying a MMO, realizing it's shit, and yes, WAR and AoC were/are shit, then quitting it.

For you I guess you're hardcore at everything? If you went to a new restaurant and you ordered a New York strip and french fries, and they served you a burnt steak, and Idaho potatos still in the fucking bag you'd get pissed at the other people bitching about how shitty the food is.

Your Epeening @ Ixo would be funny if you weren't so pathetic.

Tragedyx said...

I used to be a hardcore fuckhead elitist asshole. I still kind of am, except I quit WoW and just apply my need for perfection in real life. However, even though Ixo and I disagree on things, both in games and RL, I'm intelligent enough to understand no one will ever agree with someone fully. Opinions happen, and we either accept them as such and move on or burden ourselves with another person's ignorance.

Ixo, you're better than that. E-drama is retarded and gay, to put it very uneloquent, which is exactly how the internet understands things. Just man up and punch the shit out of each other until you both feel better.

In all seriousness, i'm on your side, due to the unprovoked attack that was directed at you. And for anyone that's gunning for me for some odd reason; eat a dick. I'll give you something to help wash it down.

Tragedyx said...

I didn't realize this fuckwad posted about me as well. He's also clearly 13 because he doesn't understand the concept of WoW: Life Ruiner. He's definitely fucking hardcore if he neglects to even ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that wow is a fucking vampire in e-form.

What a tool.

Bonedead said...

I really don't want to reply to all this, but here goes nothin.

@Random Poster
You say WAR has PvE so of course someone is going to do it, later on down you say it is a PvP centric game. Which is exactly the problem, most people from WoW enjoy PvE more than PvP (whether they know it or not) yet they still go and play these PvP games. Then they bitch and moan that it sucks when they weren't even the target demographic.

It could easily be argued that population imbalances in WAR could be blamed on the fleeing WoW Tourists (who were baseball players trying out basketball and saying, this is dumb, there's no bat!). As a WAR player who stuck around another month, I know that is why I stopped playing (which may be why I blame WoW Tourists).

People might not say that about AoC but the numbers sort of do all the talking. A lot of people did enjoy those games at release and still enjoy them now. They are the games target demographic. They're the ones who are merged to 5 different servers because of all the tourists who probably didn't research the game at all and just figured they'd give it a shot and check it out for a week or two.

I'll give you your points on WAR's gameplay issues. I personally could deal with it therefore didn't see it as a problem. Different games should have different feels imo, not every game needs the same sleek UI.

I would suggest checking WAR out now. They added influence rewards to Open RvR and they're pretty good. Not to mention 4 new classes since release. The live events are always enjoyable. (The Tome of Knowledge is still one of the best game inventions in a while)

I've always hated WoW for the fact that it basically took everything good out of every MMO that was out and threw it all together. That pissed me off. Especially the battlegrounds. Not only did they steal the idea from DAoC (my baby!) but they implemented horrible ones. When they did that, they ended world pvp. Which admittedly wasn't that great anyway since the honor system wasn't even in at the time.

I wanted to say a long time ago that everyone is fighting for their own opinions, but arguing can be fun, and I don't do it enough.

My only point (which is an opinoon of course) is that WoW players moving to new games in droves, when the odds are that they won't be sticking around, is dangerous to the genre. These games are crippled a month after release. See, WoW players have their game. Many of the people who played MMOs before WoW still have not found "their game". So when they go to a newly released MMO and two months later they're having to close down all the extra servers needed to accommodate WoW players for 1 month, and layoff employees, it hurts the remaining players who are truly interested in the game.

@Anonymous
Mr. Big Balls himself!

I'm 22, engaged, and share an apartment with my fiance, thank you very much. Nice try attempting to stereotype me though (that couldn't possibly be a case of projection could it?).

I like how that is the only message you got out of all my posts. But you probably didn't read all of my posts. That is, assuming you are the average WoW player (in his teens, living at home, playing MMOs way too much when you should be focusing on other things moreso).

I have not once directed any of this at Iso. I've read Iso since NotAddicted (as I'm a member of PKer.org) and I've always respected what he has to say.

I was a bit worried when Syncaine started taking shots at him (because I like them both) but saw that most of it was in jest.

Moral of the story is:

Iso, you're a smart guy. You should've known Darkfall was going to be a lot like UO was. The same shit that happened to you in DF happened to a crap load of people in UO. I just think you should've seen it coming. (sure there were also problems that most newer MMOs can have at release, but that should've been expected as well)

I mean seriously, who thought Darkfall was going to be 75% functional? How many MMOs are released from big companies are released 75% functional? How can that be expected from a group of 15 people?

MEH I SAY!

Rog said...

It's best just to ignore Syncaine.

I stopped paying attention to the guy awhile back when it became obvious that he's just one of those trolls who thinks teh winnar is whoever gets the most responses. He stirs up pointless controversy and makes things personal as often as he can.

You can jab back, his self-esteem issues make it really easy to do, but it just feeds his fragile ego to get a rise out of anyone.

This is the first in a long time I've bothered mentioning him by name. And probably the last.

Melf_Himself said...

"That analogy doesn't work"

I don't think you know what an analogy is.

Ixobelle said...

@Bone: I've also never aimed any shittiness back at you (let's just get a room).

In fact, I'm pretty sure i'm coming out of this "shit aim free". I didn't even start this with saying Darkfall sucks. I tried it, reported back my findings, and syn blew up.

I didn't even realize he'd been posting about my other earlier impressions about he game over on his blog. I read his blog from time to time, but it's not on my regular list, and I don't follow it in RSS or whatever.

I don't bother hating games, or people, because that takes effort. It's much easier to just be indifferent.

meh

Anonymous said...

Easier to be indifferent? Reminds me of an old quote about the Spanish Inquisition or something in that genre.

Persecution, hell that's at least a sign of personal interest! Tolerance is nine parts apathy to one part brotherly love.

Random Poster said...

"I would suggest checking WAR out now. They added influence rewards to Open RvR and they're pretty good. Not to mention 4 new classes since release. The live events are always enjoyable. (The Tome of Knowledge is still one of the best game inventions in a while)"

I actually plan to in a month or so.

I didn't hate the game. It just wasn't what I was promised so I left to let it "bake" and get a bit closer to done.

Anonymous said...

You got totally and utterly destroyed.

Pretend you're a man for a second and admit it.

Then go back to grinding a DK because isn't that what fun is all about?

But I guess arguing with a weaboo WoW nerd is like pitching a perfect game against a special olympics team. And unlike Obama, I won't apologize for making that analogy.

Ixobelle said...

But I guess arguing with a weaboo WoW nerd is like pitching a perfect game against a special olympics team. And unlike Obama, I won't apologize for making that analogy.

you're absolutely right, but even the special olympians who play DF shouldn't be upset that WoW is perfect. Wait, that's what you were saying, right?

And I've never heard "weaboo" before, but I looked it up. Number one hit on Google: Urban Dictionary. Lol, awesome. You sure got me on that one. I've moved halfway across the globe to live and work in another country. I'm sure delivering pizzas in your pinto, then going home to tell mom how much you hate her is way higher on "attractive qualities" women look for in a man.

I guess I'll just have to suffer with through life with my hot japanese wife. Boo Hoo. Good luck with mom, dood.

Anonymous said...

maybe you should look up 'lolcow' too, because thats what you are, champ.

Ixobelle said...

...and it just goes on like this, apparently.

MMO-Symposium said...

Hiya Ixobell. :)

I also had someone post a comment on mmo symposium in which someone called me a carebear for complaining about ganking in Darkfall. He also told me to go back to WoW even though I'd said in the post I don't play. :)